This Week on Soul Talks
Empathy and Intimacy with Jesus can be difficult experiences for those of us who are not bent toward emotion or are not naturally “feelers”. The Stations of the Cross is an enriching journey that the Lord has used for centuries in the lives of Christ followers to deepen our empathy and intimacy with him, and to remind us of magnitude of Jesus’ profound sacrifice.
Join us for this episode of Soul Talks where, as an Enneagram One, Bill tells of his own experience with the Stations of the Cross and Biblical suffering. You’ll be encouraged and enlightened by Bill’s account of the Apostle Paul’s faith both in Jesus and of Jesus during trials, and how we can learn from and model this in our own lives.
Resources for this episode:
Intimacy with Jesus for Thinkers and Doers Transcript
Bill & Kristi Gaultiere
Kristi
Hello friends. We are grateful to follow Jesus together with you.
We are picking up on part two here of our Soul Talk from last week, where we were talking about Unforsaken and the Stations of the Cross.
And how that has been so significant for us in our growth in Christ and our formation in him.
And what a grace that has been to us both.
I shared last week about how it didn’t start out as a grace to me.
It started out as a trigger for me.
And was something that I resisted and turned away from.
But at the same time, Bill, I was really seeing that you were really drawn to the Stations of the Cross.
You were taking time going to monasteries that had them, and you would spend a couple hours walking them, praying, and looking at them.
Then you would spend time reflecting back in your prayer cell.
And writing about them, and journaling your experience areas with each of the Stations of the Cross.
Learning From the Stations of the Cross
Kristi
We went to Israel and you spent a lot of time preparing a meditation that you wanted to do on the Via Dolorosa.
You led, you got up early in the morning at 5:00 AM or before sunset.
I think it was earlier than that, and you went into the old city and found the Stations of the Cross.
You hunted them down, found them, and started in the dark.
And did a meditation privately through each of them that was really meaningful for you.
And came back and reflected on that, prayed on that, and journaled on that.
And we had a Soul Talk about it and I kept seeing you just over and over go to the Stations of the Cross.
You just were magnetically drawn to them.
You were feeding on your relationship with Christ through the Station of the Cross.
I didn’t get it at that time, because like I said, it wasn’t something that I was drawn to.
In fact, it was something that was painful for me, that I avoided, that I didn’t want to engage with.
But I kept seeing that it was so significant for you.
And you’re not alone with that.
I mean, Mel Gibson, that was his story. It helped him to get free of alcoholism.
And that’s why he made The Passion of the Christ, all featured and based on the Stations of the Cross.
So this is an ancient practice that has been very enriching, and a deep discipline and grace that God has used in the lives of saints for centuries.
Experiencing Suffering in Our Own Lives
Kristi
But your story in particular, one of the things that stands out to me is I remember times when I saw you suffering horribly.
When your hand nerves were damaged by an IV that you got for surgery.
You had horrific nerve pain that caused you to jump three feet out of bed when you were laying flat, when it first happened.
I was there and saw it.
And then anytime it would get touched, even if I accidentally just went over to touch your hand, to caress it, or softly went to put my hand, even my fingers on your hand, you would wince.
It was horrible pain.
Or a sleeve, you couldn’t wear anything that was long sleeved, because if a sleeve or any clothing touched your hand, you would wince in pain.
Or I remember one time you were driving and something touched off that nerve pain.
And you just screamed as bad as the first time it happened.
I remember just feeling so bad for you.
And you would mention, “This is nothing compared to what Jesus suffered for me on the cross, the pain Jesus suffered for me on the cross.”
And it seemed to be strengthening you in your suffering.
It seemed to be helping you to find a joy, and a connection with Jesus in that horrific suffering and that connection was sustaining you.
I want our listeners to be able to hear your experience, because it was so different than my experience.
What you received from the Stations of the Cross, that this has become so precious to you, this practice.
And that you’ve spent so many hours of your life — years of your life — developing and meditating on, sharing with other people, and leading other people in.
Because I remember you saying things like, “This has been one of the most transformative practices” for you out of all Spiritual Disciplines.
So help us understand more about this.
Bill
Well, thank you for that summary and all your empathy, and affirming me in just how I’m seeking to follow Jesus.
I’m really blessed hearing all that as you were talking, what I remembered is I’ve always been so drawn to the Apostle Paul.
I think he’s probably an Enneagram One.
So I relate to that and we’ll be writing about that in this book on The Enneagram and Your Emotions.
It’s coming out, not until…
Kristi
September…
Bill
September of 2023. Yeah. So it’s a big, big project to write this.
So we appreciate your prayers for us.
And I think that we’ll tell Paul’s story there, especially as it relates to Enneagram Ones.
So he’s been such a mentor for me, all my adult life, and even as a teenager.
Of all the things he writes, one of my most favorite is Philippians.
Because he’s in all this suffering, but yet he has joy in God and in Jesus.
And then of Philippians, my favorite is Philippians 3.
And he says,
“Whatever was to my profit, I now consider loss for the sake of Christ.
What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord, for who’s sake, I’ve lost all things.
I consider them rubbish that I may gain Christ and be found in him not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that, which is through faith in Christ.
I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings becoming like him and his death.
And so somehow to attain to the resurrection of the dead” (Phil. 3:7-11).
Those are just the most beautiful, inspiring words to me because that is Paul, all in, devoted to Jesus.
Earlier in Philippians, he says, “For me to live is Christ and to die is gain” (Phil. 1:21).
Finding Power and Joy in the Midst of Trials
Kristi
So I want to press pause for a minute.
So friends, you didn’t get to see, you’re not here.
You can’t see us, but Bill just shared that scripture from memory.
You’ve memorized that passage.
That passage has been so important and helpful to you, important enough for you to memorize it so that you could so easily just recite it.
Bill
I actually memorized the whole book of Philippians, and I’ve recited that during long runs, many times.
But yeah, it’s life-giving to me and I relate to Paul.
I relate to a lot of things about him.
I relate with how hard he works, his perfectionism, struggling with resentment, and frustration.
He can get cranky about some stuff and get defensive about some things, but yet he learned to live in joy.
In Enneagram language, he learned to incorporate that growth line to the Seven.
He is the best example, I believe, in the Scripture, of a disciple of Jesus.
Particularly one who did not actually walk with Jesus in the flesh like Peter, James, John, and the others.
He met Jesus after the cross and resurrection.
So like how you and I meet Jesus.
His devotion to Jesus gives his whole life meaning, happiness, peace, and power.
And so he’s just operated in the spirit of Jesus in all that he does.
And so I wanna be more like him.
I wanna be more joyful and more fruitful.
And a great key comes from Philippians 3, where he talks about the fellowship of Christ’s sufferings.
Companioning with Jesus in his sufferings; the cross, but his whole life Jesus suffered.
So what I’ve learned from that, and this is really the heart of the Unforsaken booklet, is because there are two sides of it.
The one side is the obvious and that’s: thank God for Jesus!
Thank God for the Cross of Jesus!
We would all be toast without that.
I mean it’s through the Cross of Jesus that we’re forgiven of our sins, that we’re reconciled to God, that we’ve got heaven waiting for us.
Because we’ve rejected God.
And we were all rebels, in some sense.
And so we’re separated from God, and from beauty, love, joy, peace, eternal life, and all of this.
It’s because of Jesus that we’re reconciled.
That we’re forgiven and that we can live our daily life from the Kingdom of the Heavens.
And it just keeps getting better and better all the way until eternity, in the spiritual plane of it all.
And so Paul is the best articulator and model of this.
Second, of course, a very distant second to Jesus himself.
But Paul is so like Jesus, and this was the key to Paul’s life: That he learned to find joy when he was abused and beaten as a Christian.
Kristi
Did you just think, “I’ve gotta learn this. How am I gonna learn this?” and thought, “Well, I think the Stations of the Cross will teach me that.”
Bill
Well, I haven’t been abused and beaten as a Christian, so that’s an extreme example.
But I’ve been criticized, judged, and emotionally mistreated.
And I’ve suffered many other things.
And so what I’ve learned from Paul is the way Paul found the power and the joy in the midst of those trials and those sufferings was to unite with Jesus.
And to appreciate Jesus’ sacrifice, and appreciate how Jesus suffered in that way before Paul did.
So an example from the Stations of the Cross is the very first station, which is probably my favorite of the 15 Stations.
If you count the resurrection, there’s 15 Stations.
We cover all of them in Unforsaken, but the very first station it’s just is arresting to me.
Just now as I’m recalling that station, it’s like all the memories of walking the Stations of the Cross and going through the Unforsaken booklet myself.
How to Stay Centered in God’s Kingdom During Trials
Bill
I’ve reread it, prayed it, and mediated through it countless times myself.
I just start to feel warm inside and I start to feel tingling in my body.
I’m just so appreciative of what Jesus does there.
He’s standing before Pilate and he’s being judged.
He’s being wrongly, unfairly judged.
He’s being brutally mistreated.
He’s being criticized, he’s being slandered publicly and it’s screwed up!
Jesus is innocent. He hasn’t done anything wrong.
And it’s all a ploy of the religious leaders who are jealous, envious, and contemptuous.
And they’re murdering Jesus.
They’re getting rid of him, but they don’t have the power to do it and still look righteous.
So they’re putting it off onto Pilate, getting him to do it and putting pressure on him.
And Jesus stands there.
Of course he knows the whole purpose of his life is to go to the cross.
This is part of that, but he is a human being.
And he’s being criticized, and judged, and slandered publicly in a wrong way.
And he’s not defensive.
He doesn’t flinch.
He’s silent, he’s secure, he’s confident, he’s at peace.
And I’m at this Atation and I’m looking in the eyes of Jesus through the gospel story and I’m going, “Wow, that is a man’s man.”
That is a healthy man.
That is a Godly person there.
That is the fullness of God in a human being, that he can be so secure, and so confident, and so peaceful, and so joyful, when there’s a whole mob of people around him that are judging him.
Kristi
You’ve said, “That’s why we follow Jesus.”
If he had died cursing, cussing, complaining, and some of the ways that we get defensive, then we wouldn’t be worshiping him.
We wouldn’t be following him.
Bill
Right. If Jesus would have responded at the first Station to Pilate like the “Old Bill” would have responded…
Sometimes I fall into defensiveness with a counter attack or criticism.
Or just scurrying around to please people so they’ll think better about me.
All these human reactions and defense mechanisms that, understandably, we struggle with.
But if Jesus would have reacted in those ways, none of it would’ve worked!
I mean, there wouldn’t have been the sacrifice of the cross and we wouldn’t be following him.
Because all through his life, he’s loving people.
The cross—the beauty of the cross is not the cross.
It’s Jesus! It’s Jesus, the person.
It’s this perfect love embodying a human being.
So I’m there at the first Station of the Cross, with Jesus, and I’m just weeping in the first times that I’m doing it.
I’m just saying, “Jesus, I want to be more like you. You’re secure in the Father’s love. And I’m standing here with you and I wanna find my confidence in you.
And when I am judged, when I am slandered, when I am criticized, help me to remember this moment and to remember this strength that you have.
You’re not defined by your circumstance. Your personality is not thrown into a distracted or unhealthy place based on an unpleasant situation.
You stay centered in God’s presence in God’s kingdom and where you are loved. You’re the son of your Abba and you’re secure.
And so you’re able to be loving to Pilate and the people around you.”
So I just began to picture situations where I feel judged and criticized and pressured.
And I just superimposed Jesus and how he is at the cross there.
And, the Stations of the Cross, the passion is his passion.
And it’s like, “Lord, help me be more like that.”
So I’m learning.
This is where I was really learning to watch and pray with Jesus.
One of the main spiritual disciplines that we teach at each of these Stations, that’s what we’re doing.
We’re watching and praying with Jesus in a time of strength, solitude, silence, meditation on the gospel stories, and prayer.
I’m being strengthened.
Now I’m praying that forward into my life with the trials that I face — ordinary daily trials, like you shared on last week’s podcast, not having chocolate.
The beauty of that is it’s the little things.
How Learning from Jesus Changes Your Daily Life
Kristi
Well, I saw this help our marriage because it changed how you responded to me when you felt criticized by me, or unappreciated by me, or opposed by me in something that you wanted to do.
You changed. You weren’t defensive anymore.
You humbled yourself and you took it, but you took it with dignity.
And my respect for you grew more because what came out of you wasn’t anger and defensiveness or withdrawal.
What came out of you was love. And it was disarming to me.
Bill
Well, thank you for saying that and see that’s because of Jesus and his cross and my learning to appreciate that differently.
And that happened through the Unforsaken journey in the Stations of the Cross, and realizing that the key to Jesus is that he is unforsaken.
The way that we interpret Psalm 22:1 on the cross, I think, isn’t right.
I think we missed the point that Jesus is always loved by God the Father.
And he knows that, he’s trained in that, and he’s built his life on that.
So even at these points on the cross where he probably isn’t feeling that love and he’s feeling forsaken at that most critical point.
And I believe that’s why he’s reciting that Psalm and invoking that Psalm.
Jesus is unforsaken because he’s in the spiritual world of the Kingdom of God.
He’s in the embrace of his Father.
Kristi
So this is an example where, in the podcast from a couple weeks ago, we talked about when faith and feelings can contradict.
Or we have faith without feeling it and it can still be real.
This is an example, we’re saying, where Jesus wasn’t feeling the presence of the Father in a consolating way at that time, but his faith in the Father being with him wasn’t challenged.
You’ve learned to practice that through the Stations of the Cross.
That when you’re not feeling your faith, when you’re not feeling the presence of God, you have found faith in being united with Jesus and his fellowship of suffering.
Bill
Of course, sometimes I don’t.
Like this morning, I got cranky and had to work that through because it’s Monday morning as we’re recording this and I’m feeling the press of things on my calendar this week.
I’m trying to hold onto the Sabbath mode from yesterday and record these podcasts from that place of rest, nourishment, and abiding before I engage a different side of my brain in different activities.
I had to work that through.
But yes, at my best I’ve learned through these Stations of the Cross is one of the ways.
And it includes this aspect of watching and praying at each Station with Jesus.
And that’s the theme of the Unforsaken booklet.
It’s appreciating Jesus in his cross.
The one side that’s the obvious, but the second side of it is, well, this is for my life.
A Powerful Practice for Developing Your Intimacy and Christ-likeness to Become More Like Jesus
Bill
This is for me to take up my cross.
To take up our cross, as Jesus asks us to do, is to deny ourselves.
Pleasures, distractions, but most especially sins, in order to love God better and in order to love people better.
The cross isn’t bad things that happen to us — we all experience bad things and suffering.
The cross is within those bad things, we’re suffering or within anything that happens.
Choosing to deny our own ego, our own advancement, our own pleasure, above all things, in order to seek the most important thing.
Which is to glorify God in that moment.
At each stage of the cross we do both.
We give thanks to God for Jesus and his cross, and we learn from Jesus how to be more like him.
Through watching and praying at each of these Stations of the Cross and the Gospel readings that surround those, it’s like I’m getting another angle into the Gospel.
To me, it’s like a fifth Gospel.
At least for the passion of Christ in the Gospel, in that it’s rearranging some of these scenes that are so familiar, and putting them into a story that’s been remembered and commemorated by pilgrims for thousands of years.
And it’s like, I want to take this journey with all those pilgrims that are in the great cloud of witnesses of Hebrews 12 (Heb.12).
I like to do the original Stations because that’s what millions and millions and millions of people have done.
That’s the Via Dolorosa in Jerusalem.
There’s even a few of these Stations that aren’t clearly in Biblical history, but they are teaching Biblical lessons and stories.
I want to be a part of the unbroken community of God’s people across the centuries.
And do the original Stations, and do it with Jesus so that I’m learning his faith in God.
We wanna have faith in Jesus, the son of God, for sure.
But we also wanna have the faith of Jesus.
And that’s what Galatians 2:20 says. [Gal. 2:20]
There’s another scripture earlier in Galatians, and also in Hebrews 11 or 12, that refers to other places where Jesus has faith in God, and we need that.
And see, that’s what I’m getting from the Stations of the Cross is how he trusts in God the Father through all of the sufferings that are happening in that journey.
And as I’m watching and praying about the little details of my life, like being criticized, or judged, or sometimes just from my own self, my own inner critic.
These are daily trials.
So how do I face that with Jesus and with his faith in God?
That has been life changing for me.
Kristi
So that’s why we’ve poured so many resources into creating that Unforsaken booklet.
And then we also have an online website where you can share those meditations.
Bill
We got an online version of it.
We hired an artist. We paid an artist to commission these paintings of Jesus at each of the Stations.
Because we wanted it to be contemporary and fresh.
Kristi
And accessible.
Bill
And accessible, but still be traditional and tied to the Scriptures.
Kristi
So you can do this during Lent if you want, but you could do it any time.
It doesn’t have to be tied only to the season of Lent.
And you did it all year long at many times, over and over, year after year.
Bill
Yeah. It’s a virtual crosswalk.
You can read through the booklet.
Gosh, you could probably do it in 30-40 minutes.
It’s great if you can spend a little longer.
But the pictures, the scriptures, the short devotional reflection, the questions—they take you up close and personal with Jesus.
It’s [the Stations of the Cross] really a hidden jewel that most Christians have not really experienced, but it is a powerful practice for developing your intimacy with Jesus and your Christlikeness, becoming more like Jesus Christ.
Kristi
So I’ve found it fruitful to do it on retreats.
I’ve found it helpful to do it just laying on the couch in our house in a continuous time, all through the Stations.
And I found it helpful to do it once a week.
So there’s different ways.
It doesn’t have to be done in a certain way.
