This Week on Soul Talks
It can be overwhelming and even painful to journey with Jesus as he takes up his cross and endures unimaginable suffering. Oftentimes, this can lead to feelings of guilt or shame and make it difficult for us to receive the gift of love that the Lord offers through this journey.
Tune into this episode of Soul Talks, where Bill and Kristi unpack a different experience of the Stations of the Cross — one of empathy and intimacy with Christ. Be encouraged to learn that through Jesus, we can draw on the joy of the Lord even in suffering. In Christ there is no condemnation for us!
Resources for this episode:
Strength for Tender Hearts at Jesus’ Cross Transcript
Bill & Kristi Gaultiere
Bill
Hello friends. Thanks for joining us for another Soul Talk.
Today we’re going to talk about the season of Lent that we are starting, this week as we air this podcast.
You might be listening to it at a different time, which is fine because as we talk about Lent, we’re talking about self-denial as it relates to our journey with Jesus.
We’re talking about taking up our cross with Jesus.
Doing it as Jesus did it for the joy set before him.
Sometimes, Kristi, for a lot of us, the conversation about Lent, self-denial, and the cross does not feel like there’s a joy set before us.
At least in the moment.
We know there’s joy, of course, and forgiveness of our sins, heaven and all that Jesus has done for us.
But there is just a lot of pain, suffering, questions, and difficulties.
Carrying Our Own Cross
Bill
Especially when we really look closely at the cross of Jesus and at our own cross, our own self-denial, our own suffering.
And this is something that you have really wrestled deeply with.
We’ve talked so much about this as we’ve been following Jesus together and leading Soul Shepherding.
And in these recent years, sometimes around the “Stations of the Cross” practice that we’ve done and the Unforsaken book that I wrote, which was so meaningful to me.
I knew about the Stations of the Cross for the longest time, but it was only about 20 years ago that I really discovered it as an enriching devotional practice.
Not just as something that Catholics do or from a long time ago.
But actually, as a great thing for all people to do!
Because it helps us appreciate Jesus and his cross at each of these stations.
And the gospel stories are behind the stations.
It was so meaningful for me and really central in my spiritual renewal that I experienced at age 40, which really just set me on fire again for the Lord and ultimately led to the ministry of Soul Shepherding.
One of the things that really came out of this was the practice of Unforsaken.
That with Jesus, we are Unforsaken at the cross.
And Jesus himself in God’s presence, God the father’s presence in love is Unforsaken.
Now some of you listening will say, “Wait a minute, didn’t Jesus say…”
(Quoting Psalm 22:1 at the cross, one of the most famous verses in the Bible, really, especially as it relates to the passion of Christ)
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
And so, as we interpret that like that’s a literal fact, that God forsook Jesus.
We have a whole theory in our theology around that.
But that’s not necessarily the case when you read through the rest of Psalm 22.
We explain this in the Unforsaken booklet, but in the rest of that Psalm that Jesus invokes on the cross, he speaks about God not forsaking him and God loving Jesus like a mother loves a child.
There’s another way of thinking about this: At the cross, Jesus felt forsaken as he’s carrying our sins.
Even then, God loves Jesus because, well, that’s true for us. We’re sinners.
Yet while we were still sinners Christ died for us. God comes towards us when we are in sin.
He doesn’t reject us in anger.
If God is angry, it’s in love and it’s with forgiveness, grace, mercy, and arms outstretched in a “come to me” expression.
This is another way of thinking about the cross.
We embedded this into the Unforsaken journey, and it’s been really important for you, Kristi.
In fact, I rewrote the Unforsaken booklet with consideration of your tender heart and your sensitivity.
To help make sure that each of the stations, each of the meditations, each of the ways that we thank God for the cross of Jesus, and each of the ways that we join with Jesus at the cross, would actually minister to your soul and bring healing,
Or if you are hurting, to help you find the joy of this intimacy with Jesus and his Father.
Pouring Out Our Emotions at the Cross
Kristi
Well, I’ve been so appreciative of that because you succeeded in that.
It has been an experience that’s gracious and enriching.
Really helping me in experiencing God’s love at a deeper level, maturing my faith and my relationship with Jesus.
It was really hard for me when you first started practicing the Stations of the Cross.
Because you wanted to share it with me, and I appreciated that you wanted to share it with me.
But I had all of these associations with the cross that were really damaging to me.
I couldn’t engage with thinking about the cross or even looking with Jesus at the cross without feeling horrific shame and self-hatred. It would just trigger it in me.
This sense of, “I am so bad. How could I be so bad that somebody would have to suffer to that horrible, gruesome extent?”
And if God would do that to Jesus, then how could I believe he wouldn’t do that to me?
Plus the scripture says, “Take up your cross and follow me.” (Luke 9:23)
And scripture has some pretty harsh teachings about denying self, death to self, suffering, and being united with Christ and his sufferings.
And all of that just utterly overwhelmed me and caused me to shrivel away from God in terror.
So to see how you were finding such intimacy with Jesus through the contemplation and the prayer experiences of the Stations of the Cross just increased my shame.
My shame of:
“Do I even believe the gospel?”
“Do I even trust Jesus at all?”
“Am I just professing things that I don’t believe?”
Because it was so triggering for me— of all this self-hatred and all this shame.
Bill
Thank you for your honesty, Kristi.
You’re just pouring out your heart here.
I think what you’re saying is that you were having an emotional allergy to the Stations of the Cross.
And when you’re really honest, you were having trouble getting close to the cross of Jesus and fully receiving the gift of love that was there for you.
Obviously, you confessed your sins, you believed you needed the cross and God’s forgiveness to be reconciled through Jesus to God.
You’ve worked all that through, but yet at some deep emotional level, there was this sense of the way you said it was, “If God would let Jesus suffer like this, what’s gonna happen to me?”
Kristi
It just produced all kinds of distrust and terror in me, and shame.
“I’m not strong enough.”
“My faith isn’t strong enough.”
“I’m not devoted enough. I’m not committed enough. I’m not courageous enough.”
I would just all turn on me.
You were practicing Lent and you were finding Lent so helpful, and you were engaging with pretty rigorous disciplines of self-denial at the time.
I misunderstood it because, to me, I just felt, “My life is so hard and for God to ask me to give up something else when I’ve already given up so much…”
“I can’t imagine giving up another thing.”
And I was depressed and I was struggling.
So I couldn’t find any consolation or meaning in the practice of Lent either.
Bill
At that point, you needed a deeper, fuller healing from that shame and that self-hatred.
In order to get to a place where you could receive more of the mercy and grace that God is offering you through Jesus and his cross.
For the Joy Set Before Him
Kristi
Yeah.
I was feeling so much shame.
I remember being at a Spiritual Formation retreat during Lent and somebody made a joke, kind of mocking people who give up chocolate for Lent.
As if, you know, that wasn’t a meaningful thing to give up.
I remember just feeling so hurt by that because, to me, that was about all I could do.
That was a big thing for me at the time when I was depressed and these practices were not a consolation to me, they didn’t seem to be helping me spiritually.
It just, all the more, made me feel shame.
Like, “Yes, you see how weak I am. See what a baby in the faith I am.”
I felt shame about that because I’d been a Christian for 35 years at that time.
I was having trouble seeing and understanding how these practices could be a grace, or could be something that would be good for me to do at that season of my life.
Bill
That judgment you received and internalized, even having you recall that now,I just feel sad again.
Because it’s just a very wrong thinking and unloving, what came across to you there, because anyone that really knows you—and certainly if they had any empathy— would not say that.
Because, gosh, I’ve seen you during some Lents give up chocolate in a way that is so robust in your discipleship and your devotion to God— to deny yourself something that you really enjoy.
Although you’re not able to enjoy it now because you’ve lost your taste because of COVID.
It’s that lingering effect of COVID from so many months ago and still not being able to taste.
You’ve got a perpetual Lent going on here.
As it relates to not only chocolate, but all food and delicious tastes.
That’s a big deal because there’s a lot of flavor in life, and the happiness and pleasure in life that comes from our eating.
Right now, you’re just eating for nutrition. And a lot of times it’s tasting horrible.
These feelings are real and were real years ago in this situation you’re recalling now.
The person that judged you is not seeing that when you were giving up chocolate, you were using that to pray.
You would feel the loss of that pleasure, that taste, that energy, that just a little piece of chocolate that you might have in a given day.
Which would prompt you to appreciate all that Jesus gave up for you in the cross.
It would prompt you to pray and place yourself beyond the physical reality of your body, your craving for chocolate, your desire for something sweet, and your desire for energy.
And to transcend that as the bi-habitational creature that you are—that we all are— and draw from the spiritual world of God’s presence,Jesus’ love for you, and the sacrifice of the cross.
You were practicing what we talked about, “For the joy set before him, Jesus, endured the cross” (Heb 12:2).
What that means is not only the joy of heaven and the joy of us in heaven with Jesus and the hope of all that…
Of course it means that, but it also means the Kingdom of God now.
It means Jesus, embraced by the Father’s love at the cross, now.
It means that there is a joy available to Jesus as he is suffering.
And in the complexity of a human being and our emotions, we can feel more than one thing at a time.
And Jesus is tapping into God’s presence, God’s love,God’s faithfulness and God’s kindness with him as he’s going through the ordeal of the passion.
You are practicing that in your own way during Lent.
So that was a very wrongheaded, misguided judgment there and getting that off of you…
God Will Meet You Where You Are With What You Need
Kristi
You gave me empathy when I shared how that felt to me, and that was helpful to me.
You know, it was an important part of my training that I did in giving up chocolate for those Lents.
Maybe it was miniature training.
Maybe I was training for a little Pee Wee race or something, not a marathon.
But it still was where I was at. And it was what I needed.
It’s helped me actually, even in this loss through COVID, it’s helped me to still be happy without being able to enjoy some of those pleasures.
I think that training helped me to be able to do that.
Another thing that helped me was some of the breath prayers that you put in Unforsakenlike, “Your love, O Lord, is better than chocolate.”
Bill
Praying Psalm 63:3, “Your love, Lord, is better than life.”
Kristi
To let the craving and the desire for that remind me of a better, bigger desire.
A desire that is more than my desire for chocolate.
And that’s my desire for Jesus, and for his love and his grace.
Bill
That’s our greatest joy, whenever we practice self-denial.
That could be as simple as a few hours of solitude and silence.
That’s a discipline of self-denial or abstinence.
These kinds of disciplines are important to have in a rhythm of life because they make more space in our schedule, and in our heart and soul to engage with God and to engage with other people.
So we always want, in a rhythm of life, to be going back and forth between some disciplines of engagement, like Bible reading, worship, community and service, with disciplines of abstinence, like fasting, frugality, solitude and silence, or Sabbath.
Lent is a lot about emphasizing these disciplines of abstinence, but it’s not an end in itself.
Kristi
One of the other fruits of that training for me—with giving up chocolate—was ever since then when I would enjoy chocolate, I would thank God for it more.
I had a greater appreciation and I could enjoy the chocolate with Jesus as a connection of gratitude and of celebration.
Bill
See, that’s so beautiful.
And see, that’s where the discipline of abstinence is making space for a deeper engagement with God and with people.
Kristi
That every gift is from God the Father, and to enjoy that gift of enjoyment of chocolate with God and from him as well.
Bill
Yeah.
Now you’re getting into what we talked about in this Soul Shepherding Institute week that just completed.
And all of you listening, we would so love to have you join us sometime in the Soul Shepherding Institute.
It’s just the best thing that we do in Soul Shepherding.
We have just such a great group of people that come in, all kinds.
We had three different Christian musicians in this last Institute week that we did, Kristi.
Professional singers who go to different church groups.
All kinds of people that come, of course, you know, our heartbeat is pastors and missionaries.
And we had lots of those, and ministry spouses, but we have other kinds of leaders and Soul Shepherds as well.
And it’s a great eclectic group of women and men.
We had 30 of us. But it’s so fun to just press in closer to Jesus with that.
And we practice these disciplines of abstinence and engagement together.
Just to see how that helps us draw closer to Jesus.
Taking heart from each other as we’re doing scripture meditations, as we’re doing solitude in silence.
But also enjoying meals together, laughter, and fun.
Engagement and Abstinence at the Cross
Kristi
I think Bill, as we talk more about this— these disciplines of engagement and abstinence and how they go together— I also wanna refocus back to the Stations of the Cross and Unforsaken.
These are disciplines of engagement that, for me, are joyful and meaningful, and are really helpful for my intimacy with Jesus.
Before, I couldn’t experience it that way because of all the shame and the self-hatred that got triggered.
But the way now that I have been able to be trained with it and use the Unforsaken Stations of the Cross has been so catalytic and helpful for my appreciations of Jesus’ sufferings.
And my ability to endure sufferings, because I feel his empathy for me.
Because he went before me and because he knows the betrayal.
When someone slanders me, he knows the betrayal.
When someone lets me down, he knows the pain of falling down.
The Unforsaken booklet has helped me to connect with Jesus in my weakness, in my need.
When I’m being sinned against, when I feel anger, when I’m having trouble blessing the one who’s cursing me.
I’m finding a rich fellowship and grace through the Unforsaken booklet and the Stations of the Cross.
Bill
It is the sweetest of all intimacy with Jesus and his Abba.
When we learn the way that you’re describing, Kristi, of joining with Jesus at the Stations of the Cross, which represent different types of suffering that Jesus experienced.
That we also experienced in life.
Now, none of us is gonna bear people’s sins and die on a cross as the atoning sacrifice for the world.
That alone Jesus did, of course, but other things like being judged by Pilot and falling down under the weight of a huge burden.
Dealing with grief, people leaving you, rejection, pain in your body, and being abused—all these are human experiences that we all go through.
Jesus went first and he went through the pain.
And he did it trusting totally, completely, in God.
When we bring our sufferings to be mingled with Jesus’ sufferings for us, there is great healing.
It blesses me to see how God has brought this mercy and this grace to you, Kristi.
Now you can find joy instead of shame and fear when you move close to the cross of Jesus.
And now you find a sweeter intimacy with God.
I’m just so proud of you for how you have taken courage with your tender, sensitive heart and deep feelings.
To take courage, to move into these areas in such deep ways. And it just really paid off.
Not only in your intimacy with God and in your joy personally, but in ministry as a wounded healer to others.
So many of you who are listening, some of you relate to me as a “Type A” thinker and doer, but a lot of you relate to Kristi, who is more of a sensitive feeler.
It’s so helpful to have Kristi articulate these things that you’re feeling.
To know that you’re not alone and Jesus is in the middle of that with you.
Kristi
Well, I want our listeners to benefit from understanding and hearing your journey with Jesus through the Stations of the Cross.
So let’s do a “Part Two” on this where I get to ask you questions and draw you out about your experience.
Bill
Okay. Turnabout is fair play.
