Listen this episode of Soul Talks:
This is part 2 of our conversation with Bobby Schuller. Join us as Bill and Bobby continue to unpack how the Enneagram can help us live into our identity as the Beloved.
For more Soul Shepherding resources on the Enneagram, click below:
YouTube videos
Finding Your Enneagram Type
Blog Posts
SoulTalks
Enneagram — You are Beloved
Bill Gaultiere with Guest Bobby Schuller.
Bill
Today we’re continuing our popular series on the Enneagram as I have a Soul Talk with my friend Bobby Schuller.
Bobby is the lead pastor of Shepherd’s Grove and the Hour of Power, which is the longest running televised church service in America. Every week, it reaches millions of people around the world with the gospel of Jesus. Bobby is also the author of You Are Beloved.
Hello, Soul Talks friends. We’re back with Bobby Schuller here. Thanks, Bobby, for joining us for another conversation.
Bobby
Hey, Bill. Good to be here, man.
You Are the Beloved
Bill
We are going to talk about the Enneagram. Of course, that’s been our series and we’re going to tie into your book, You Are Beloved.
Bobby
Okay, awesome. Great. I dedicated that book to you, by the way.
Bill
Thank you for that. I’m so honored by that. I love that book. I love that message.
I was praying about it as I was thinking about this conversation, and I realized that maybe even more than you intended, you really tapped into the wisdom of the Enneagram with this book.
Bobby
Yeah, I didn’t know that. I heard on your podcast, you and Kristi were talking about these different groups.
This is so fascinating. So let me see if I can get it right — I’ll pass the quiz. The gut types are “I am I am what I do.”
Bill
Yeah.
Bobby
And the head types are, this is the only change, “I am what people feel about me”.
Bill
No, the head types are “I am what I have.”
Bobby
Oh yeah, that’s right. Sorry. And the emotional types, or the heart types, are “I am what people feel I am.” Then the head types, the Five, Six and Seven are “I am what I have.”
Bill
Yeah, and that’s pretty much what you have in You Are Beloved.
The Creed
Bobby
Yeah, that portion— I’ve said it till I’m blue in the face — but it’s not an original thing as it came from Henry Nouwen.
In my book, I talk in the intro about putting that together — that the first half, it’s not the whole creed, it’s the best part of the creed is the beginning there — “I’m not what I do. I’m not what I have. I’m not what people say about me. I am the beloved of God.”
The way that got worked into my own life, I just forget how, but I heard — it’s actually Glenn DeMaster’s office…
Bill
Yes, when I read that I was wondering whose office he was in because I know all those pastors.
Bobby
Yeah, because Glenn was kind of sponsoring —I forget the program, MFCA is that what is called?
Bill
CPE?
Bobby
No, it’s the program you have to do in the RCA for your ordination. You have to have another RCA pastor sort of sponsor you. So he was my mentor through that process. I was in his office.
I loved Henry Nouwen at the time and I think he has a book — I forget which one it is, he’s got like 40 books, and I’ve read all of them.
But it’s in one of them that he talks about this tape, and it said Henry Nouwen speaks at the Crystal Cathedral in 1996 which was the year he died or a year before he died.
Bill
I was there. I heard those messages.
Bobby
You know, it’s so awesome. What is so funny is at the time, there were three church services in the Cathedral. And he thought that he was supposed to give a different sermon at each service.
So at the 8:00 service he gave one sermon, at 9:30 he gave another, and at 11 he gave another,
Bill
And thank God he did!
Bobby
Thank God he did! They are all so good.
It was in those sermons, he basically gave three — I should put them on my YouTube page if somebody wants to watch them — he talks about this thing, “You’re not what you do. You’re not what you have. You are not what people say about you.”
And so I started just praying that in my life, and for whatever reason, I feel like more than any other discipline in my life, just saying that before I did any kind of quiet time, it helped me so much.
I saw so much, I hate to say “quick change”, but over a period of just a few days I could see a big difference in my life just praying it over my life.
So the creed of the Beloved is a little bit makeshift. I would change one thing though and I think you’ll agree with this — at the end we say (I have to go from the top here):
I’m not what I do. I’m not what I have. I’m not what people say about me. I’m the beloved of God. It’s who I am. No one can take it from me. I don’t have to worry. I don’t have to hurry. I can trust my friend Jesus, and share His love with the world.
You might even guess what I’m going to say, but I’ve said this lots of times — I wish I would have changed it to — and I can share His love with my neighbor. Because I think so often Christians feel overwhelmed. Like we just have to love everybody.
And I think very often of these words Dallas, I read later after writing the creed, “It’s not about loving everybody. It’s about loving somebody.”
Bill
Well, we know what you mean and I understand as a fellow author. That’s the thing about print, it’s very unforgiving.
Because real life is a journey and we’re continuing to learn as we go along. So we look back on things we wrote in the past, and we could maybe write it even better now, but we don’t get to do that.
Unless you’re writing on the internet, which is where most of my writings are. And I can always edit them.
Bobby
Yeah, I was going to say, unless you’re One and you write an entire book and hate it so much, you just throw it away.
When you told me that, I thought, how do you throw away a whole book? You don’t at least print it and put it on your shelf?
Bill
It’s my spiritual formation program. Death to self. Finding grace and joy even in that.
Bobby
That takes a lot of courage, though, to throw away a book
Bill
But you told me Henry Nouwen did that. He would write a 500 page book, and then he would condense it down to 150 and publish that.
Bobby
That might be apocryphal. I’ve heard that on several occasions. I haven’t read that. I don’t have an original source for that.
But that’s the rumor that he would do that. Remember, he was a professor, I think Harvard and Yale, right?
Bill
Yeah.
Bobby
So he would write these giant manuscripts first, knowing that he would sort of whittle them down.
He would have a whole paragraph that’s thick theological language and think, “How can I say this in one sentence that touches the heart?”
That’s kind of how he wrote his books.
And his books are technically 100 pages, or 150 pages, but they have pictures and with their whole print they are really like 10,000 words — very small.
The Wisdom of the Enneagram
Bill
Usually, he’s always writing to the heart.
And often it’s based on one key story from his life and some great principle of wisdom. He’s just talking to us about that from his heart.
And so really, that’s what you’re doing in You Are Beloved. You’re taking that wisdom, as we know it’s a deep wisdom coming from Henry Nouwen, of his unpacking of the way Jesus deals with the three temptations.
The Enneagram is also bringing that same wisdom.
It’s just really an amazing thing to me that we gut types — I’m a One with perfectionistic tendencies and the tendency to anger and hiddenness and with that taking on too many responsibilities and burdens — so I’m with you in that triad that, “I am what I do.” That’s the lie that we can believe
Bobby
That’s the one that had the biggest impact on me. And I always probably wrongly assume that’s the one that has the most meat for everybody.
But, you know, the theory would be that the head types, the Five, Six, and Seven struggle with “I am what I have”.
So if I’m poor, I’m worthless. If I’m rich, I mean something, or whatever, right? It doesn’t have to be material things, it can be other things.
Bill
Yeah, for the Seven it’s “I am the pleasurable experiences that I have or that I’m planning.” Yeah.
Because Sevens are all about planning the next fun thing, and they’re getting their meaning and their happiness out of that.
For the Fives, it would tend to be more knowledge, money, and hoarding those resources.
The Sixes are really into sort of the rules and tradition and getting power from authority figures.
So they’re trying to gather that to feel secure, because the head types are really struggling with anxiety and fear.
Bobby
Yeah.
Bill
Then the heart triad. That’s the helper Twos and achieving Threes, and the individualist or romantic Fours. Those heart types are really finding themselves by looking at their reflection in other people.
So it’s like, yeah, “I am what others feel about me” or, as you said, “I am what others say about me.” That would be the temptation.
But the truth that you are getting it in your creed is “No, that’s not who I am. I’m a child of God. I’m a brother of Jesus.”
The Via Negativa — Whittling Down
Bobby
Yeah, that’s right. So I’m a big believer in the Via Negativa. Before we say what we are, we have to reject what we are not. I love the whittling down of things.
And simplifying a thing.
Bill
So did you call it?
Bobby
The Via Negativa?
Bill
Well, you used one of those Sunday in church?
Bobby
I don’t know.
Bill
Yeah, what was the word — it was a Greek or Hebrew word.
Bobby
Oh, maybe avodah.
Bill
Yeah, avodah.
Bobby
That word in Hebrew, avodah — it means worship, it means work, and it means service.
That’s why the Old Testament is way more fun to translate than the Greek. Greek has like 80,000 words and Hebrew has like 2,000, at least at the time of the writing of the Old Testament.
Modern Hebrew is more like a normal modern language.
So for the Old Testament there is really no difference between when Adam and Eve are called to abad and shamar and vad and shamar.
That’s the word avodah. So abad and shamar the garden can either mean worship, it can mean service, or it can mean work.
So the idea is that your work is your worship, etc.
Bill
I thought that was so interesting.
Bobby
So Via Negativa comes from old Catholic stuff, and it’s the idea of whittling down or removing things from your life, rather than adding things to your life.
Or removing things from your thinking, rather than adding things to your thinking so you can think clearer.
So the Via Negativa then would be the affirmation.
Before we talk about who we are and before we say we’re the beloved, for the purpose of clarity, we say we’re not what….I am sorry, I keep doing that.
I’m using my hands, as if people can see it on a podcast. My hands are going everywhere!
Bill
It’s helping you communicate!. It’s that Enneagram Eightness. Bang on the microphone and energy and yes, it’s communicating to me.
Bobby
Well, good. Yeah. So before I say “I’m the beloved”, I have to recognize I’m not what I do. In God’s eyes, it doesn’t matter. I’m not what I have, that doesn’t matter in the kingdom of God. I’m not what people say about me, that doesn’t matter.
That whittling down, then what am I? If I’m not any of those things, what am I? Then I’m the beloved.
Bill
How great is the love the Father has lavished upon us that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1. So that’s your mantra.
Bobby
And the biggest pushback I always get — I removed all this from the book because my writing coach said I was being too defensive — but the biggest pushback that we get is, “Well, what about I’m not what I do morally?”“
Actually, I have a whole chapter on that you’re not what you do morally.
I’ve been called holiness preacher. You know I love to preach on the Sermon on the Mount. I think what you do matters, what you do is important, what you have matters, is important, and what people say about you is important.
So it’s not that those things aren’t important. It’s just that they’re not what you are. Right? That’s a big part of the gospel of grace, right? We’re not our good works.
So it’s amazing how many pastors, I will hear in one breath, “I’m saved by grace, I’m not my works.”
And then you just feel so judged, because I’m not good enough. I’m not doing enough.
Bill
A lot of that is because they don’t understand the path of transformation.
And they don’t understand the deeper spirituality, the emotions, relationships, and just the psychology of personality formation and reformation.
And so they get the doctrine of it. And then to see people change, they don’t realize that they’re actually pressuring them, and exerting force on their will.
Being manipulative with judgments, to try to get them to change, so they look like Christians.
Bobby
Absolutely. Yeah.
Enneagram and Your Identity
Bill
So how has the Enneagram helped you in terms of your sense of your identity as the beloved of the Lord?
Bobby
That’s a good question.
So if I’m thinking in terms of my book, I think that I struggle a lot with not having a meaningful life, not making a difference.
I think that in so much of my life — I’m trying to think about a way to say this on the radio without talking about personal friends and family members and stuff — but there’s so much of my life that was, honestly for a long time, about being confused.
My parents were divorced. I experienced some abuse from a distant member of my family, and a lot of bullying.
So that was confusing for me as a child where sometimes from the same people, you get an incredible amount of love, compassion, empathy, support, and then at another time, you get something that’s like the opposite.
So I think it is very difficult as a kid, you know, feeling confused.
I don’t think they always mean to do this, but when parents are divorced, sometimes you feel like you always have to choose between parents, and then you feel a lot of guilt and shame about that from the one you didn’t choose.
So for me, I think a big part of becoming an Eight was powering up, learning to say, “You know what, it’s not my problem. You do you, I’m going to do me, and we’ll just do the best we can.”
This was, as you’d probably say, a coping mechanism, right? I mean, this is a way that I learned to adapt in many ways to my environment.
Overall I had a great childhood, great parents, great grandparents, great friends, but you know, all of us experience these feelings of rejection.
Junior high and early high school is always an interesting time when you’re sort of trying to find your place in the world.
I’ll never forget my first fight. I was in sixth grade and I was sitting down doing my homework, and I was whistling. I whistle all the time and I don’t hear myself doing it.
Bill
That’s great. Unconscious whistling. Making cheer.
Bobby
Yea, it’s a classic. Well, anyway, it’s not good for sneaking up on people.
So I was working on my homework and I’m whistling something. This punk kid, I forget his name, no I know his name, his name was Jeff. He looks at me, he says, “Hey,” I didn’t know him at the time. “Hey, stop whistling.”
This is like classic boys in the playground, trying to lord over each other.
And so I said, “What?” He goes, “Stop whistling.”
And I just looked at him eye to eye, locked in and whistled at him. “What are you going to do about it?” He said, “I said stop whistling.”
So I leaned in, we’re nose to nose, like some whistling war, you know? And then his friend grabbed me from behind and he started punching.
You know, we’re kids and we’re not very old, right? So nobody really got hurt. But when you’re a kid, you think this is everything.
So he starts hitting me a little bit, I break free from my friend.
And I got him right across the jaw and he dropped like a sack of potatoes to the ground and grabbed his mouth. And we both started crying.
It’s classic sixth grade, you know. So we went to the principal’s office. And the principal actually sided with me. He said, you attacked him and he defended himself.
That whole experience brought something to the surface in me that was really like, I can choose if I’m brave enough.
Bill
I’ve got the power and the ability to defend myself to make things right.
Bobby
Yeah, that’s right. That’s exactly right.
So I think so much of my value as a person came from having control of myself and having control of my emotions.
That is actually an illusion, right? It’s like this idea that if I control my emotions I’m stoic, I am a man I. I lead, I do.
There’s this joke I had. I was in a very dark place in my life once and a good friend of mine, Hillary, said very sweetly, “What are your goals this year?” And I looked at her and I said, “I don’t have any goals. If I want to do something I just do it.”
They tease me forever about this. But this was years ago, I was not in a good place. When I’m in this not good place, that’s how I start to power up all the time.
Bill
Yeah, wanting control, even control of your environment, or people around you.
Bobby
Yeah, so the You Are Beloved message is about the opposite of that.
You are loved. You don’t need to power up, let God have the power. You don’t need to prove anything. You don’t need to set things straight. You don’t need to tell it like it is. You don’t need to pick a fight.
For my personality type, I don’t have to worry about going the other way, it almost never happens.
I don’t have to worry about not being direct enough. I don’t have to worry about not powering up.
What I need to work on is just giving it to the Lord and living a peaceful life with open hands.
Bill
Yeah, there’s the letting go of control, trusting God with that and then self awareness and vulnerability. And so that’s what you’re writing about in You Are Beloved.
The Power of Indirection
Bobby
Oh, and this is what I learned from you, and this is what’s so important — that power of indirection.
You just can’t will to do that. You can try to do that for a little bit, and you can work on it.
But the indirect part is that third piece, affirming the belovedness of God through bonding deeply with your neighbor, bonding deeply with your friends and family.
Bonding deeply with a soul friend, and then really getting this personal bond with the Lord with His love towards you.
Even if you’re unemployed, unmarried, unhappy, and whatever. That he just so loves us, cares for us, and we don’t have anything to prove.
So I think it’s that third piece. Very often books will say something like, Do this. Do that. Try harder.
But one of the things I’ve learned from you, and this is one reason I dedicated the book to you — I don’t know if you liked the book, by the way —
Bill
I love the book.
Bobby
Oh, good. Okay. I’m always worried. I’m not sure if you’re going to like my stuff.
Well, anyway, we’ll talk about that later. But anyway, I really felt like the power of indirection, this sort of soul digging, is what I learned from you.
The value that you can’t make the moral change or the choice changes until you make the heart change.
Bill
Yeah. The Enneagram is helping us with that by surfacing things that are unconscious.
You’re illustrating that and it’s also helping us because we don’t have within us what we need to change.
Some Enneagram teachers maybe don’t bring this out very clearly, because it’s not a popular thing in our culture to say that, well, I’m not enough, and I can’t help myself, I need God.
But I’m confident that the right way, the best way, the most helpful and loving way to use the Enneagram, is to see in it that in the example with the Eight, now the way into healing and growth is to find something that’s not in you.
But it’s in a healthy Two. Of course, Jesus is the perfect type around the clock for all nine types.
So we’re looking to Jesus, but Jesus has nine different faces on the Enneagram, nine different expressions, particularly within human personality.
Things that were unconscious within you, the will to power, to defend yourself, to to be in control, to not be controlled no matter what, to get your way, that doesn’t actually end up working.
So the Enneagram helps you become conscious of that tendency, that root sin, then to learn from a gentler type that’s considerate and gives empathy to others.
Part of that is receiving empathy yourself.
The Enneagram Reveals Our Blind Spots
Bobby
That’s right. Yeah, I would say some of the things that the Enneagram taught me about some blind spots was this deep fear of being controlled.
That really comes through in not wanting to do or be stuck doing stuff that doesn’t matter, mundane stuff. Nobody wants that.
But I feel like I’m very aware of wasting time, inefficiency, and inaction. And being controlled by people who I’m close to if I feel like they’re trying to manipulate me into doing something. It’s very hard for me to deal with that.
So it’s helped me.
Then just learning, I think we already mentioned it, that people need me to be generous, to be hospitable, to be noticing their emotions, to not always make it about action and doing things, but to really sit down and hear a person’s heart and really draw people out.
I mean, that’s something that doesn’t always come naturally to me.
But when I learned to live in this sort of grace of the beloved thing, it became so natural to do that.
Bill
Well, I just want to thank you, Bobby, on behalf of a lot of people for the inner work that you have done, because it’s making a huge difference in the ways that you love your wife and your children and your friends and your staff and the people of Shepherd’s Grove and the viewers of Hour of Power.
All those reflections and wrestlings and confessions and soul talk conversations and spiritual disciplines — all that is the Lord is refining you.
I’m getting a front row seat in our friendship over these years to see you just become more and more like Jesus, more and more generous and compassionate and considerate, and really looking to bless other people and just such wisdom on top of it.
I mean, it was just amazing sitting in church on Sunday in Shepherd’s Grove here in Irvine and hearing you unpack the Sermon on the Mount and just give us these great insights.
The work that you have done to develop You Are the Beloved, the Creed, the message, it’s making a difference.
Bobby
Thanks, pal. I appreciate that so much. Well, it’s such an important message.
Bill
It’s your life, you’re living it.
Bobby
I think so many of us are so unconsciously lonely.
There’s this hidden part of so many of us that feels unseen and unloved.
It’s very hard I think for any type to allow that part to be seen and sort of take a risk and allow at least people closest to you to see that part of your life.
Or to not always have the right answers, to not always work.
I feel like so many people are suffocating because they have this secret loneliness.
Bill
Yeah. So I know that from the inside too.
It’s just so important for me to be finding safe people that I’m real with and say Hey, I’m having a hard time right now. This is what I’m going through and these are things to confess to.
And the Lord meets me in that and people give me empathy and grace to be courageous to share those stories with other people.
Just the other day a pastor shared with me, thanking me for our Soul Shepherding blog and saying, “I just appreciate your vulnerability.”
When we do that, you who are listening, you have a place of message, you have a platform, whether it’s Facebook or a church pulpit or a small group you lead or soul friends that you talk with, or a family that you care for.
We have people around us that listen to us and they’re looking for Jesus in our life.
One of the best things that we can do is find ways to share the work of God in our life through our brokenness and our weakness as the Lord is helping us, and let other people see into that.
That’s been fun to journey with you, Bobby, and see your vulnerability even as a high powered Enneagram Eight.
Those are the best leaders, when the one with the giftings and the knowledge and the power is authentic and real and can say I’m struggling with this too.
Here’s where I was hurt, but here’s what I’m learning. Or here’s where I messed up, and I’m sorry, but here’s what the Lord is teaching us.
Bobby
I think it’s also too, when we were talking about just not having to deliver.
Do people want to be around me — and this is not just me but I think a lot of other people as well — if I’m not funny, if I’m not helpful, if I’m not contributing? Do people like me?
I think that’s a big part of it, too. It’s not just the confession. It’s the being desirable to my neighbor, do people want to be around me?
Bill
Even if you are not your best personality.
Bobby
Yeah, yeah. Like if I’m just me, would people want to be around me? And I think that all of us are unconsciously always trying to prove that.
I almost feel like that’s at the heart of almost every bit of the nine types — how do we try and prove ourselves? You know, either to show, This is what I do. This is what I have, or this is what people feel about me?
I think there’s a way that sort of every type kind of does that.
Bill
Yeah. So for me as a One, I feel like I need to do it perfectly.
And then here we’re sitting down, we’re doing a podcast and a Facebook Live video and I forget to record the podcast; 35 minutes later, we figure that out.
And Bobby is just jumping right in there, “Bill. That’s okay. It was fun doing it. And we’ll do better the next time and I got all day” and you’re just giving grace.
That’s like healing tonic for an Enneagram One perfectionist out there when someone gives you grace, and you can dial down that internalized pressure, not feeling like you need to do everything perfectly.
It’s like no, we’re doing life together with Jesus and it’s all good.
Bobby
Yeah, exactly right.
Now, I would say my type would be like, if that was the fourth time you did it, I would have thrown a chair.
But especially with a One I mean, everything is so perfect in your life.
But that’s it. That’s exactly right. The Two, if I serve, I matter. As a Four if I write an amazing song, you know, with the Seven if I’m the life of the party, you know?
Bill
These false identities.
Bobby
Yeah, they’re false identities. That’s right.
Bill
And the true one is that we are the beloved of God with Jesus.
Bobby
And I think that also we’re the beloved of our neighbor. We don’t understand that people really do love us more than more than we realize. So I think that’s key.
Bill
Well, thanks for talking with us here on Soul Talks.
We really appreciate your time and your stories, your wisdom, and just sharing our soul friendship here.
Bobby
Thank you. And don’t forget to remind everybody, you’re coming to preach at Shepherds Grove.
Bill
March 31 and April 7, I’ll be preaching at Bobby’s church. I’m looking forward to that. We’d love to have you there if you’re in Orange County, California.
And if you’re not, you don’t have to miss out, you can watch live on Facebook, through Soul Shepherding’s Facebook page, or through the Shepherd’s Grove Facebook page.
We would love to have you tune in. We’ll be talking about the Enneagram and your path to Jesus.
We’ll be bringing some scriptures to life and how the Lord wants to heal your identity and give you a new freedom, and how you can use the ancient tool, the Enneagram.
If you’re new to the Enneagram, that’s okay. We’re going to guide you along step by step just like we’re doing in these podcasts.
Bobby
Awesome. Cool. I’m so glad you’re coming. It’s going to be great.
Bill
Thanks for having me. It’s an honor.
So could you close us in prayer, Bobby? Thank you.
Bobby
Absolutely.
So Lord, first of all, we just thank you that you love us so much. And you see all the stuff in our life and you love us just as we are not as we should be.
So Lord, we almost want to begin by letting go of all the ways we try to prove ourselves to our neighbor or to you.
We thank you that we don’t have to prove anything to you to be loved or accepted by you.
That because of what Christ did on the cross, through his resurrection, we’re raised to life already.
Then I just pray that you’d send your Holy Spirit into the bodies and minds of everyone hearing the sound of my voice, that you would just affirm in our heart and mind this truth that you love us, that you made us.
That though we want to be better, we want to do better, we want to achieve more, it’s okay to be where we are now to just be at peace and to trust that you’ll get us where we need to be when we need to be there.
I just ask Lord, that would culminate ultimately into a holiness that comes from what you’re doing through grace, not what we’re doing from beating ourselves up.
That instead of always trying to do loving things, we’re just becoming loving people.
That instead of always trying to prove ourselves, we would just relax.
I pray, God, that so many of the things we learned from Bill and Kristi — that we’d learn to be more honest about our emotions and to bond deeper with our friends and family and neighbors.
Lord, we thank you, we love you, and we trust you.
It’s in Jesus’ name we pray.
Amen.
